RESPONSE TO ASSERTION #1 of “Metaphorical Mephisto”

The following is an extract from the article “Metaphorical Mephisto” (http://www.nabion.org/html/metaphorical_mephisto.html) that is critiquing the Biblical Calendar as well as other doctrines espoused by Harold Camping, General Manager and CEO of Family Radio, a Christian radio ministry:

Yet the lengths to which Harold Camping went in order to make Levi 60 years old is bizarre. This was Camping’s key— the discovery of this “secret” code in Exodus 6. This is where we must start, precisely where he did.

   Harold Camping must make Levi 60 years old when he entered Egypt. Without it, his whole key is useless. Without it there is no proof of a patriarch calendar system of just-add-the-ages-together. There is therefore no 13,000 year old Earth in 1988, etc.

   True facts are simply impassible, and they were, in detail: Joseph was 39 years old when Jacob and his brothers entered Egypt. Genesis 41:46 says Joseph was 30 years old at the time he stood before Pharaoh to interpret the dream. Seven years of plenty followed. Joseph was thus 37 years. In Genesis 45:6 Joseph makes himself known unto his brothers and says: “For these two years hath the famine been in the land.” Joseph was thus 39 years old. He told them there were yet five years more of famine. In this same year, Jacob stood before Pharaoh, and he said that he was 130 years old. We know this was the year in which they entered Egypt because the chapter (Genesis 47) begins with Joseph telling Pharaoh that his family was now in the land of Goshen. Joseph then took five of them to present them to Pharaoh, Jacob his father being one of them. We thus know that Joseph was 39 and Jacob was 130.

   This is perplexing to Camping, since if Levi was 60 years old he had to be 21 years older than Joseph. How can that be? Joseph was born to Jacob after Jacob had lived in Haran 14 years. Levi was born sometime within that 7 year period prior to Joseph, after Jacob had worked 7 years to obtain Leah. Therefore Levi had to be less than 7 years older than Joseph. Camping must make Levi 21 years older. There is no other way for his key to work. Levi must be made to be 60 years old when entering Egypt.

   In order to do so, Camping makes Jacob spend not 20 years in Haran, as the Bible says . . .but with his novel intuition gives Jacob a 40 year sojourn. He inserts an unnamed 20 years between Jacob contracting for Leah and Rachel, and then the herds and flocks! Biblically, there was 7 years each for Leah and Rachel. Despite the clear language of Genesis 31 when Jacob tells Laban (verse 41) “Thus have I been twenty years in thy house; I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy cattle. . .” Camping must place another 20 years between the 14 years for Rachel and Leah and the 6 years for the cattle.

   Camping starts with this assumption and fabricates an extra 20 years. Camping openly declares:

   “Since Jacob left Haran immediately after he had obtained his flocks, the only time during his Haran sojourn when he could have added to the twenty years named in Genesis 31:41 is the time between his contract to obtain Rachel and Leah and his contract to obtain his flocks. In other words, he must have worked for wages of some kind for a period of time following the expiration of his second seven year agreement to obtain Rachel. During this wage-earning period his family continued to grow until Joseph was born. Then he wished to leave but was induced to stay in Haran in return for all the oddly marked sheep.”

   In essence, this is saying Jacob worked for a 20 years span not mentioned in the Bible, according to a contract not mentioned in the Bible, for no pay of any kind, and then was induced to work an additional 6 years for pay (the flocks). Jacob says something else:

Genesis 31:36 -

“And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? What is my sin that thou hast so hotly pursued after me? (37) Whereas thou hast searched all my stuff, what hast thou found of all thy household stuff? Set it here before my brethren and thy brethren, that they may judge betwixt us both. (38) This twenty years have I been with thee; thy ewes and thy she-goats have not cast their young, and the rams of thy flock have I not eaten. (39) That which was torn of beasts I brought not unto thee; I bare the loss of it; of my hand didst thou require it, whether stolen by day or by night. (40) Thus I was; in the day the drought consumed me, and the frost by night; and my sleep departed from mine eyes. (41) Thus have I been twenty years in thy house; I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy cattle: and thou hast changed my wages ten times. . .”

“This” 20 years— not “those 20 years” sometime between the last 6 years and after the first 14 years. The Hebrew does mean “this.” Jacob is speaking of the time period which immediately ended. Yet because 20 years is mentioned twice Camping decides to divide the time into two separate 20 year periods, coming up with the 40 years he desperately needs rather than look at the context.

   Why would a man, cheated all the way by Laban for 14 years, foolishly contract for another 20 years, and then again for another 6 years? The reality is, he didn’t. The Bible is clear.

It is obvious— Camping has no key. Nor it is possible that his personal study methods could ever find one.  One of his “key” arguments for 40 years in Haran proves that. Camping wrote:

“Also, if Jacob’s time with Laban in Haran had been restricted to twenty years, the events related in Genesis 38 concerning Judah’s family would have been well nigh impossible. Genesis 38 records events that lead up to the birth of twin sons to Judah by his daughter-in-law Tamar. Genesis 46:11 indicates that the sons of Judah, Perez and Zerah, went into Egypt with Jacob. On the presumption of a twenty year Haran sojourn, Jacob could not have been less than 88 or 89 when Judah was born. Since Jacob was 130 when he entered Egypt, Judah could not have been older than 31 or 32 years when he entered Egypt. During this thirty-one or thirty-two years Judah would have had to grow from baby to manhood, and additionally, all of the events of Genesis 38 would need to have taken place.”   

   Of course, 130 years minus 88 = 42, not thirty-two years for Judah, old enough even by today’s standards to be a grandfather. This was not a typo. Camping didn’t pay attention to his calculations, here or most anywhere. With a 20 year sojourn in Haran, as Genesis says, there is still more than enough time for Judah to be a grandfather. Camping also didn’t notice that if Joseph was only 39 when Jacob entered Egypt at 130 years of age, how could his older brother Judah be younger at 32? Also, Benjamin his younger bother entered Egypt already having 10 sons. All that Camping had on his mind was prove his “key”— make Levi 60 years old. If something didn’t fit, have the numbers represent the counting of Jacob’s sperm. A headlong dash that ended up in failure and the ludicrous.

The assertion made above is:

Assertion #1:

Jacob’s stay in Haran was 20 years and not 40 years. Answer affects Levi’s age at entering Egypt. If 20 years is correct then because Joseph would have been born after Jacob was in Haran for over 14 years and Jacob had Joseph when he was 91 then Jacob came into Haran at least 15 years earlier and that would make Jacob around 76 years when he came in. He would then work 7 years for Leah and then father Reuben in his eight year and then Simeon in his ninth year and then Levi would be born in his tenth year when he was around 86 years old making Levi only around 5 years (less than seven years) older than Joseph (who was 39 years) and Levi would be around 44 years old at the entering into Egypt and not around 60 years as the Biblical Calendar, page 14 shows.

Commencement of Response:

Below are the verses that speak of two “twenty years” to account for Jacob’s stay in Haran:

Gen 31:36 ¶ And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me? 37 Whereas thou hast searched all my stuff, what hast thou found of all thy household stuff? set it here before my brethren and thy brethren, that they may judge betwixt us both. 38 This twenty years have I been with thee; thy ewes and thy she goats have not cast their young, and the rams of thy flock have I not eaten. 39 That which was torn of beasts I brought not unto thee; I bare the loss of it; of my hand didst thou require it, whether stolen by day, or stolen by night. 40 Thus I was; in the day the drought consumed me, and the frost by night; and my sleep departed from mine eyes. 41 Thus have I been twenty years in thy house; I served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy cattle: and thou hast changed my wages ten times. 42 Except the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely thou hadst sent me away now empty. God hath seen mine affliction and the labour of my hands, and rebuked thee yesternight.

Because of “thus” at the beginning of verse 41, it is quite easy to understand both periods of twenty years as one and the same. However, verse 41 starts in this manner in the YLT:

41 ‘This is to me twenty years in thy house: I have served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy flock; and thou changest my hire ten times;

And “this” is showing a distinct and specific period of twenty years which was spent in Laban’s house. Please note that the YLT signifies this position also as the translation uses a colon after house which means in the mind(s) of the translator(s) the twenty years in Laban’s house was being showed as 14 years plus 6 years.

Now also, the YLT does show a colon after “thee” in verse 38:

Ge 31:38 ‘These twenty years I am with thee: thy ewes and thy she-goats have not miscarried, and the rams of thy flock I have not eaten;

Again showing that the twenty years in verse 38 in the understanding of the YLT relates specifically to the period of shepherding the flock!

The introduction to verse 38 shows the reason why the first twenty-year period was mentioned. Jacob wanted to show to both his own brethren (obviously, Jacob’s sons included who were now old enough adults to arbitrate and not young children) and Laban’s brethren how unjust Laban was to him especially after Laban had already searched Jacob’s belongings and found not his idol images thus giving Jacob an opportunity to rebound. Which Jacob immediately seized upon (he being the shrewd supplanter) in order to escalate and magnify his point of the heights of unreasonableness of Laban, by describing the worse conditions first--the twenty-year period when he was working as a shepherd at a personal loss to himself and all the cruelty that was done to him. Then afterwards, he describes another period of twenty years that was not as difficult because he was being paid with Laban’s daughters and with cattle but having his wages changed ten times. Then Jacob closes his argument by attesting to God’s divine intervention on his behalf or else Laban would have left him quite destitute. So we see two distinct periods of twenty years as shown in the chart on Biblical Calendar, page 14A which also displays the various children born and the working arrangements and wages of Jacob and over what periods of time as described in the Bible.

The following foot note is shown on the chart which embellishes Jacob’s age of 100 years old when he left Haran to return to Canaan:

Further support for Jacob being 100 years when he leaves Haran:

Ge 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son (Isaac) in his old age <02208>, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

Ge 21:7 And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age <02208>.

Ge 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age <02208>: and he made him a coat of many colours. {colours: or, pieces} (YLT: “a long coat”).

Ge 44:20 And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child (Benjamin) of his old age <02208>, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.

Ge 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

From the above verses we see the term "old age" is Strong's #02208. Also, when Isaac was born, Abraham his father was 100 years old and he was regarded as having a son in his old age. Well, we see from Genesis 37:3 that Joseph was also a son of Israel's (Jacob's) old age and from the chart above we find that Jacob was 91 years old when Joseph was born showing that Jacob was indeed of old age. Additionally, Benjamin was also a son of Jacob's old age based on Genesis 44:20 above. We find that Benjamin was born in Bethlehem-Ephrath to Jacob shortly after he returned to from Haran to Canaan which would have been shortly after Jacob was 100 years old: Gen 35:16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour. 17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. 18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem. So, we see Jacob's age of 100 years on leaving Haran and entering Canaan is very secure.

As a result of asking for assistance, a fellow Christian provided insights along the following lines (also shown as a foot note in the chart) which further show the length of stay in Haran as 40 years:

Dinah, Jacob's daughter and 11th child was raped by Shechem who wanted to marry her as they were shacking up together. This event occurred shortly after Jacob's arrival into Canaan (Gen 34). Dinah was therefore a young adult at this point probably between 16 years to 20 years old. Since she was born in Haran then it means that Jacob just returning from Haran to Canaan must have been in Haran for over 20 years and much longer because Dinah was Jacob's 11th child and all of her prior siblings were born from a pregnancy of only one child and from the evidence these siblings were spread out somewhat with the first four being born to Leah. So we would have to add at least another 11-12 years to the 20 years since all 10 siblings were also born in Haran to make at least 31-32 years stay of Jacob in Haran. But also, we would need to add a further 7 years to cater for Jacob's working for Leah and then a further 1 year would be added for the pregnancy period of Reuben, the first born which brings the length of the stay up to around 40 years! From the chart on page 14A of the Biblical Calendar Dinah would be at least 18 years and so the chart again fits the historical timing of events.

The incident above with Dinah resulted with two of her older brothers (Simeon and Levi) taking revenge and so the following foot note was also added to the calendar in support of a forty year stay in Haran:

Simeon and Levi who were the second and third children also would have to be adults in order for them to slay all the men in the city of Shechem as a result of Dinah's rape and shacking up with Shechem: Gen 34:25 " And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males." Now this event happened as soon as Jacob got back to Canaan and Simeon and Levi were both grown men at that time as the text signifies. From the chart above Simeon was at least 31 years and Levi was at least 30 years which means they were fully grown men ("each man") and thereby again confirming the veracity of the above chart showing the length of Jacob's stay in Haran to be 40 years.

So if the stay in Haran was only 20 years as the writer of “Metaphorical Mephisto” insists, then Simeon and Levi would have been only 11 and 12 years old and Dinah would have been way younger and the events of Shechem could not have happened. So, the calendar is definitely in line with a forty years stay in Haran to account for the amount of time required for these historical events to take place, especially seeing that we do not find that Jacob stayed at any interim site for any appreciable length of time before going into Shechem in Canaan.

The end.

Click here for Home

Click here for Personal Studies

NEW INFORMATION REVEALED IN APRIL/MAY 2009:

The following study mathematically demonstrates that Jacob was in Haran for 40 years even as God stated in Genesis 31:

God’s Vital Evidence to the Patriarchal Period of His Calendar -- God always comes through and He is never late! This study examines the irrefutable mathematical proof that Jacob was in Haran for 40 years as God declares in Genesis 31 and shows how God provided the insight increasingly over several generations.

ADDENDUM

In further correspondences on this topic, a fellow Christian who was in favor of a twenty years stay made the following contribution to support his viewpoint:

We read that when Esau wanted to take his journey with Jacob, we read that Jacob refused because of the young children.

    Genesis 33:12-13
    12 And he said, Let us take our journey, and let us go, and I will go before thee.
    13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.

Jacob's children are still young and tender.

This would suggest that Dinah is still way too young to be defiled when they arrive in Shechem, which is still a problem we will look at shortly.

And surely, the children are too young to be able to slay the men of Shechem.

The same Hebrew word for tender can be found in the following verses:

    1 Chronicles 22:5
    5 And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be builded for the LORD must be exceeding magnificent, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

    II Chronicles 13:7
    7 And there are gathered unto him vain men, the children of Belial, and have strengthened themselves against Rehoboam the son of Solomon, when Rehoboam was young and tenderhearted, and could not withstand them.

First, we need to know how old Solomon was at this time.
Knowing how old Rehoboam would also help.
I can't recall these ages off the top of my head.
This might help to define the age of one who is called tender.

Secondly, I realize it is possible that the children whom Jacob calls young and tender could be grandchildren.
We know at least 17 people left Haran. Jacob, his two wives, and their handmaids. That makes 5.
Add 11 sons and 1 daughter. This makes a total of 17 people.
Do we know of any others with Jacob, who might have had little children?

There is yet another very important verse.
It comes in between the encounter with Esau and when Jacob arrives in Shechem.

    Genesis 33:17
    17 And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house, and made booths for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.

Before arriving in Shechem, we discover a pivotal piece of information.
After meeting Esau, Jacob came to Succoth, which was a city on the east side of the Jordan River.
He didn't even the cross the Jordan yet, where Shechem was in Canaan.
It says he built a house, and also booths for his cattle.
Obviously, Jacob was settling down for a long while.

I was amazed to read this verse.
It would be in Succoth that his children would grow, including Dinah.
So when they finally arrive in Shechem, Dinah is old enough to be defiled, and Simeon and Levi are capable of killing all the men of Shechem.
So, this would mean a 20 year stay in Haran is still very much possible.

But, is it possible that the missing 20 years was not stayed in Haran, but in Succoth.
In other words, is it possible that the calendar is still valid because it was 40 years before Jacob arrived in Shechem?
Jacob could have sojourned 20 years in Haran, but also sojourned 20 years in Succoth.
This would provide the needed 40 years!

However, this presents a big problem.
Isn't it true that the calendar needs a 20 year stay in Haran so there could be a large gap between Levi and Joseph?
This would mean that if Jacob stayed in Succoth for the 20 years, instead of Haran, then Joseph would only be a few years younger than Levi.
And I believe this would mess the whole calendar up.

Response to the above comments:

Here are all the verses that use “tender” as is shown in Gen 33:13:

Ge 18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender <07390> and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

Ge 29:17 Leah was tender <07390> eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.

Ge 33:13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender <07390>, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.

De 20:8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted <07390>? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart. {faint: Heb. melt}

De 28:54 So that the man that is tender <07390> among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:

De 28:56 The tender <07390> and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

2Sa 3:39 And I am this day weak <07390>, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness. {weak: Heb. tender}

1Ch 22:5 And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender <07390>, and the house that is to be builded for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

1Ch 29:1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender <07390>, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.

2Ch 13:7 And there are gathered unto him vain men, the children of Belial, and have strengthened themselves against Rehoboam the son of Solomon, when Rehoboam was young and tenderhearted <07390>, and could not withstand them.

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft <07390> words unto thee?

Pr 4:3 For I was my father’s son, tender <07390> and only beloved in the sight of my mother.

Pr 15:1 A soft <07390> answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Pr 25:15 By long forbearing is a prince persuaded, and a soft <07390> tongue breaketh the bone.

Isa 47:1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender <07390> and delicate.

Eze 17:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one <07390>, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent:

Please note the many green highlights where “tender” does not mean young in terms of age but rather it is speaking of a quality of softness in character. Thus the children that are “tender” are much like Jacob in personality and not like Esau who was rugged and aggressive. So “tender” is not conveying lack of maturity in age.

Now, the verse never said that “Jacob's children are still young and tender”. “Young” was used only in reference to the herd and flock that were with calves and not the human children of Jacob:

Ge 33:13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.

Now to address Solomon’s age at being young and tender, Rehoboam started to reign in 931 BC and he was forty one years:

1Ki 14:21 And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD did choose out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother’s name was Naamah an Ammonitess.

This means he was born in 972 BC to his father Solomon 5 years before David died in 967 BC and Solomon must have been old enough to be fathering children and old enough to be fathering by an Ammonite against God’s wishes thus showing he probably was independent of David’s counseling at this stage over his personal life.

Also, therefore Rehoboam was at least 41 years old when this statement was made because he was already king:

2Ch 13:7 And there are gathered unto him vain men, the children of Belial, and have strengthened themselves against Rehoboam the son of Solomon, when Rehoboam was young <05288> and tenderhearted <07390>, and could not withstand them.

Note that “young” is a totally different Hebrew word and refers to his age which shows that low forties can be regarded as “young” (Jesus was near forty at his crucifixion and was regarded as a young man). The “tenderhearted” description referred to his lack of exposure in warfare and is the same word used by Jacob in reference to the character of his children:

Ge 33:13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender <07390>, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.

So going back to the passage of interest:

Gen 33:16 ¶ So Esau returned that day on his way unto Seir.

17 And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house, and made booths <05521> for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth. {Succoth: that is, Booths}

18 And Jacob came to Shalem, a city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Padanaram; and pitched his tent before the city. {Shechem: Gr. Sychem}

There is no compelling reason to saying that Jacob built a huge dwelling for all his household of at least 17 to live in and so spent a lot of time in Succoth to raise his children. The first thing that would be wrong here is that Jacob was interested in his promised inheritance in Canaan and would wish no delay in getting to the inheritance especially with it being so close in proximity. The next point is that verse 17 is there to show that it is around the time of the Feast of booths (Tabernacles-Succoth) that the elect represented by the cattle will have their immortal bodies (booths) given to them by Christ represented here by Jacob in verse 17 as he made the booths for his cattle just prior to entering heaven pictured by them coming into Canaan in verse 18. The house that Jacob built symbolized the completion of the saving of every elect incorporating them into the very body of Christ which is the spiritual house:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. {are: or, be ye}

And the last elect must be saved so that the house is completed before the translation of the saints into their incorruptible booths (bodies) and their entering into heaven (Canaan). From what we know, these events will occur in quick succession not 20 years. Now please note that all of the above occurs when Satan and his hosts of angels and unsaved mankind have been turned back into cursed eternal damnation represented in genesis 33:16 by Esau and his company departing that day (spiritually-the Day of the Lord) to cursed Seir:

Ezk 35: 1 ¶ Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it,

3 And say unto it, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O mount Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand against thee, and I will make thee most desolate. {most…: Heb. desolation and desolation}

4 I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

5 Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end: {perpetual…: or, hatred of old} {shed…: Heb. poured out the children} {force: Heb. hands}

6 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee.

7 Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it him that passeth out and him that returneth. {most…: Heb. desolation and desolation}

8 And I will fill his mountains with his slain men: in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword.

9 I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Additionally, the booths for the cattle were also easily erectable and broken down:

Ne 8:15 And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths <05521>, as it is written.

.

Now, we are going to be a little trivial here but with just cause. Here are the KJV and YLT versions of Gen 33:17:

KJV: 17 And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house, and made booths for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.

YLT: 17 and Jacob hath journeyed to Succoth, and buildeth to himself a house, and for his cattle hath made booths, therefore hath he called the name of the place Succoth.

Putting aside the spiritual connotation as I showed where this house was uniquely Christ’s and was his own body—“Himself”, can this verse in the literal understanding thereof mean that it was a small house just for Jacob himself and he made this as a temple for temporary worship since the word for house is also translated “temple” and used indicating “temple” and this would fit in with the spiritual house being the temple of God?

Ge 33:17 And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house <01004>, and made booths for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth. {Succoth: that is, Booths}

1Ki 6:17 And the house <01004>, that is, the temple before it, was forty cubits long.

1Ki 7:50 And the bowls, and the snuffers, and the basons, and the spoons, and the censers of pure gold; and the hinges of gold, both for the doors of the inner house <01004>, the most holy place, and for the doors of the house <01004>, to wit, of the temple. {censers: Heb. ash pans}

2Ki 11:10 And to the captains over hundreds did the priest give king David’s spears and shields, that were in the temple <01004> of the LORD.

2Ki 11:11 And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple <01004> to the left corner of the temple <01004>, along by the altar and the temple <01004>. {corner: Heb. shoulder}

2Ki 11:13 And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple <01004> of the LORD.

Definitely, the word could have been translated “temple” and it would equally fit the historical and spiritual import of the verse and its context.

So, we do not find any reason to believe that Jacob’s children {Reuben through Dinah who was 11^th)} were so young in age that they were not adults on arriving at Shechem. The only child that would be still that young at Shechem would be Joseph, who, based on a forty year stay in Haran and Jacob returning at the age of 100 years, would be only nine years old having been born to Jacob when he was 91 years as Joseph was 39 years old when Jacob was 130 years in 1877 BC. And, based on your assumption of an additional 20 years in Succoth that would mean that Joseph was born in Succoth and not Haran (as stated in the scriptures) plus Joseph was 17 years when Jacob was 108 years at the time that Joseph was thrown into the pit whilst living in Canaan. So whichever way we examine the matter, Joseph was born when Jacob was 91 years old and Jacob was 91 years old in Haran where Joseph was born and not in Succoth.

On the matter of whether or not there were only 17 persons returning to Canaan in the group led by Jacob. The bible records thusly:

Gen 30:41 And it came to pass, whensoever the stronger cattle did conceive, that Jacob laid the rods before the eyes of the cattle in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods. 42 But when the cattle were feeble, he put them not in: so the feebler were Laban’s, and the stronger Jacob’s. 43 And the man (Jacob) increased exceedingly, and had much cattle, and maidservants, and menservants, and camels, and asses.

Gen 32:4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: 5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.

So, we see there were many more than 17 persons returning to Canaan when Esau met Jacob and for sure these many servants had their families with them and so young children would definitely be in the company.

A FURTHER COMMENT BY THE FELLOW CHRISTIAN after reading the response above:

“You seem to think that the word tender described all of Jacob's children as gentle, weak, fainthearted men. But if your timeline is accurate, then Simeon and Levi shortly after their encounter with Esau brutally murdered all the men of Shechem.”

RESPONSE TO ABOVE COMMENT:

Jacob perceived his children as tender because he himself was that way and he had not been a man given to violence and neither had any of his children up to that point. So he was not aware of exactly what they were capable of until they showed him plainly:

Gen 34:30 And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.

Ge 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. {instruments…: or, their swords are weapons of violence}

A FOLLOW UP COMMENT BY THE FELLOW CHRISTIAN:

“Another observation which leads me to believe that the children were young is just before they met with Esau.

    Genesis 33:1-2
    1 And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids.
    2 And he put the handmaids and their children foremost, and Leah and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindermost.

I'm not making a big deal out of the word children here, but I don't get the sense here that they were grown men.
It almost sounds like the the women will be responsible for protecting the children.
You'd think the men would be prepared to fight, as once again evidenced by the attitude of Simeon and Levi.”

RESPONSE TO ABOVE:

On the contrary, Jacob acting as the clever and shrewd elect (as his name indicates “supplanter”) who always got the better of Esau from they were born and were children and even until now. The placing of the women first was a strategic move to appease Esau’s anger with peaceful gests (Ps 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.) and not fight fire with fire by putting the men first and showing for an open engagement and escalation. Of course, you will note that Jacob, still scheming, put his concubines and their children first (they were the one he loved least and were first to be dispensed with if a battle started) and then came the others in the order based on his love with Joseph his great love last of all. God uses the word “children” so we could see which ones were identified with their mothers who are the center of focus and not the children who are unnamed as the mothers were the defensive ploys even as Jacob predetermined and set his plan in motion as shown clearly in the passage below:

Gen 32: 6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.

7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;

8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape…..

13 ¶ And he lodged there that same night; and took of that which came to his hand a present for Esau his brother;

14 Two hundred she goats, and twenty he goats, two hundred ewes, and twenty rams,

15 Thirty milch camels with their colts, forty kine, and ten bulls, twenty she asses, and ten foals.

16 And he delivered them into the hand of his servants, every drove by themselves; and said unto his servants, Pass over before me, and put a space betwixt drove and drove.

17 And he commanded the foremost, saying, When Esau my brother meeteth thee, and asketh thee, saying, Whose art thou? and whither goest thou? and whose are these before thee?

18 Then thou shalt say, They be thy servant Jacob’s; it is a present sent unto my lord Esau: and, behold, also he is behind us.

19 And so commanded he the second, and the third, and all that followed the droves, saying, On this manner shall ye speak unto Esau, when ye find him.

20 And say ye moreover, Behold, thy servant Jacob is behind us. For he said, I will appease him with the present that goeth before me, and afterward I will see his face; peradventure he will accept of me. {of me: Heb. my face}

21 So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company.

FURTHER COMMENT BY FELLOW CHRISTIAN:

“This could be one of those hidden verses being overlooked for the sake of saving the integrity of the calendar.
He didn't just build a tent, or an altar, or something. He built a house. It didn't have to be huge.
And he made booths for cattle. If he was just passing though, why go through the trouble?
You brought up some good spiritual points, but that wouldn't necessarily change the historical context.”

RESPONSE TO ABOVE:

It was showed that the Hebrew word for “house” could be temple and as such was only for Jacob himself as the context also showed. The most important aspect of the scriptures is its spiritual import that is spirit and life so one could easily well see God fitting in this historical account of Jacob building a small temple to give thanks to God for recently delivering him from the awful wrath of his brother Esau but with a view to give the larger more important spiritual picture as I outlined. So Jacob could have built the temple or house for the very purpose of giving thanks and it would be worth all that trouble. When we read on a little further we see that building a small temple to worship was a very common thing to do:

Gen 33:17 And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house, and made booths for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth. {Succoth: that is, Booths}

18 And Jacob came to Shalem, a city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Padanaram; and pitched his tent before the city. {Shechem: Gr. Sychem}

19 And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem’s father, for an hundred pieces of money. {Hamor: Gr. Emmor} {pieces…: or, lambs}

20 And he erected there an altar, and called it Elelohe–Israel. {Elelohe–Israel: that is God the God of Israel}

Those who have thoroughly studied the calendar realize that it by itself is the greatest proof that can show tangibly to any other human that God exists as evidenced by His Word as the calendar unifies many books of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) showing that they are all the work of one Author but written at different time periods. The calendar is where there is harmony. Of course, having studied the calendar, that work puts one in very good stead to see pitfalls and errors of those who challenge its accuracy without having as much background experience in the calendar (like the Nabion writer, as an example). Anyway, we stand only for truth and that is why we are giving the “Metaphorical Mephisto” article all our attention and looking at it squarely and fairly and trying to answer all the assertions with the help of others, everything being done openly so that all may benefit (1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.).

ANOTHER SET OF COMMENTS BY FELLOW CHRISTIAN:

Here are some additional thoughts/speculations to think about...

Wouldn't Rachel be fairly close to Jacob in age?
How could she fool her father into thinking she was in her menstrual cycle if she was older?
If Jacob left Haran at 100 years old as you said, even if Rachel was 30 years younger, could she have her period at 70 years old?
If she was this old, wouldn't her father be just a little suspicious??

Genesis 31:35
    35 And she said to her father, Let it not displease my lord that I cannot rise up before thee; for the custom of women is upon me. And he searched but found not the images.

It is true that Rachel later gave birth to Benjamin, in which case she obviously did not hit menopause yet.
But if she is anywhere near Jacob's age, doesn't God usually draw attention to miracles like this if she gave birth at such a late age?
I could be missing something obvious, so I'm not making a big deal out of Rachel here.
But I thought it was worth mentioning.

Anyway, it is for the above reasons and other, that I'm going to remain in wait mode.

RESPONSE TO ABOVE:

We know that Rachel was younger than Leah. Her age was not given in scriptures. However, let us say she was 16-20 years when Jacob first arrived and wanted her for his bride. Then forty years later when he is leaving being 100 years old, Rachel would be only 56-60 and still physically capable of child bearing especially because God had closed her womb for several years earlier until Joseph was conceived and so she now had an extra fertility period by Divine intervention. We read back in the late 1980’s of a retired English wife at the age of 63 years becoming pregnant and she did not have that extra fertility as Rachel! But again this is another good point that you have raised but the historical account of Jacob staying forty years in Haran matches your point perfectly.

The fellow Christian further commented:

The other reasons were from some possibilities offered on another Christian group.
I suggested that it was possible that the children of Jacob could have been born in sync.
And that each woman did not wait until they finished bearing for the next woman to start bearing children.
In other words, Bilhah and Zilpah could have been pregnant at the same times.
Likewise, Rachel could have had Joseph anytime during Leah bearing her last three children.
Or, Rachel could have given Jacob her handmaid by the time Leah had Simeon or Levi, prior to having Judah.
I think it is feasible, unless I am missing something obvious, that even if Leah had all four children.
Rachel then gave Bilhah to Jacob. Leah could've responded immediately by giving Zilpah to Jacob.
All four children by both handmaids then, could've been born in a 2 year period.
It is entirely possible also, that Leah could've begun giving birth to her last three children, while the handmaids also gave birth.
And Rachel could've had Joseph at any point during Leah's last three children.
The order of births in Genesis 49 would suggest this, that Bilhah and Zilpah were bearing children in parallel with each other
But even that list is a bit strange because if Jacob is blessing by the order of their birth, all of Leah's sons are mentioned first, including Issachar and Zebulun.

RESPONSE TO ABOVE:

Please see the highlights:

Gen 29:31 ¶ And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. {Reuben: that is, See a son}

33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon. {Simeon: that is, Hearing}

34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. {Levi: that is, Joined}

35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing. {Judah: that is, Praise} {left…: Heb. stood from bearing}

Gen 30:1 ¶ And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die.

2 And Jacob’s anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God’s stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?

3 And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. {have…: Heb. be built by her}

4 And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her.

5 And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son.

6 And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan. {Dan: that is, Judging}

7 And Bilhah Rachel’s maid conceived again, and bare Jacob a second son.

8 And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali. {great…: Heb. wrestlings of God} {Naphtali: that is, My wrestling: Gr. Nephthalim}

9 When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife.

10 And Zilpah Leah’s maid bare Jacob a son.

11 And Leah said, A troop cometh: and she called his name Gad. {Gad: that is, A troop, or, company}

12 And Zilpah Leah’s maid bare Jacob a second son.

13 And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher. {Happy…: Heb. In my happiness} {Asher: that is, Happy}

14 ¶ And Reuben went in the days of wheat harvest, and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them unto his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, Give me, I pray thee, of thy son’s mandrakes.

15 And she said unto her, Is it a small matter that thou hast taken my husband? and wouldest thou take away my son’s mandrakes also? And Rachel said, Therefore he shall lie with thee to night for thy son’s mandrakes.

16 And Jacob came out of the field in the evening, and Leah went out to meet him, and said, Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son’s mandrakes. And he lay with her that night.

17 And God hearkened unto Leah, and she conceived, and bare Jacob the fifth son.

18 And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar. {Issachar: that is, An hire}

19 And Leah conceived again, and bare Jacob the sixth son.

20 And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun. {Zebulun: that is, Dwelling: Gr. Zabulon}

21 And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah. {Dinah: that is Judgment}

22 And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.

23 And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:

24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son. {Joseph: that is, Adding}

Now we can see that each child was born from a single pregnancy and without overlapping if we just let the text flow as God described and as shown on page 14A of the calendar:

Let us look at the progression of the account. Jacob got married to Leah after 7 years. Leah was fertile and gave births to (#1) Reuben, (#2) Simeon, (#3) Levi, and Judah without stop and each one was a single pregnancy. During this time there was no need to give her handmaid as she was being fruitful. This means that Jacob was now in the Haran for 11 years at this point at the birth of (#4) Judah. After the birth of Judah, Leah became infertile at God's plan. Jacob also had to work another 3 years for Rachel to make his stay 14 years. He got married to Rachel but God closed her womb and so Rachel gave her handmaid (Bilhah) to Jacob who conceived and bore (#5) Dan probably when Jacob had been in the land for 16 years. Bilhah then conceived again and bore (#6) Naphtali when Jacob had been in the land about 17 years. During this time Leah is jealous as she cannot have any children and Rachel is getting the better of her although she had 4 sons. So she gives Zilpah to Jacob in her jealousy and Zilpah bears (#7) Gad when Jacob has been in the land 18 years. Zilpah then bears another son (#8) Asher when Jacob has been in the land 19 years. During all this while both Leah and Rachel are infertile. Jacob was no longer sleeping with Leah because of this so Leah hired him for a night by selling Reuben's mandrakes to Rachel. God heakens unto Leah's voice and grants her wishes and she conceives and bares her fifth son, (#9) Issachar, when Jacob was in the land 20 years. Leah conceived again and bare (#10) Zebulun, her sixth son, when Jacob was in the land for 21 years. Afterwards, Leah conceived and bore (#11) Dinah when Jacob was in the land 22 years. Rachel was still barren all of this time by Divine means and it was not until Jacob was in the land for 31 years that God hearkened unto her and opened her womb and she bore (#12) Joseph to Jacob when Jacob was 91 years old. So there was a nine year gap between the births of Dinah and Joseph and the latter was 9 years old when he returned to Shechem in Canaan and Dinah was about 18 years (just like the earlier assumption of between 16-20 years) and Jacob was 100 years. So once again we see we can trust the calendar as it stands with Jacob spending forty years in Haran as Dinah is old enough to wed and be shacking up with Shechem when they return from Haran.

The fellow Christian further stated:

Again, I refer us to Genesis 49.

The order in which the sons are blessed could have been their birth order.
Though one exception does exist with Leah.
For some reason, God lists all Leah's sons first, including Zebulun and Issachar, which were born after all the children born to handmaids.
I have no explanation for this, but look at the sequence here:

According to Genesis 29 and 30:

[Leah]
Rebuen, Simeon, Levi, Judah

[Bilhah]
Dan, Naphtali

[Zilpah]
Gad, Asher

[Leah]
Issachar, Zebulun

[Rachel]
Joseph

According to Genesis 49:

Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar
Dan, Gad
Asher, Naphtali
Joseph

It appears the overlap takes place during the births of the four children by the two handmaids.
Why all of Leah's sons are mentioned first, I don't know.
But Leah could have conceived at anytime during the births of the four sons by the handmaids.

Response to above:

We do not find that the enumeration in Gen 49 is always according to time of birth. For example, we find Zebulun is listed before Issachar:

Gen 49:13 ¶ Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

14 Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:

But the recording of their births shows that Issachar was born first as the fifth son of Leah and then Zebulun as the sixth son of Leah and both were from single birth pregnancies:

Gen 30:14 ¶ And Reuben went in the days of wheat harvest, and found mandrakes in the field, and brought them unto his mother Leah. Then Rachel said to Leah, Give me, I pray thee, of thy son’s mandrakes.

15 And she said unto her, Is it a small matter that thou hast taken my husband? and wouldest thou take away my son’s mandrakes also? And Rachel said, Therefore he shall lie with thee to night for thy son’s mandrakes.

16 And Jacob came out of the field in the evening, and Leah went out to meet him, and said, Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son’s mandrakes. And he lay with her that night.

17 And God hearkened unto Leah, and she conceived, and bare Jacob the fifth son.

18 And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar. {Issachar: that is, An hire}

19 And Leah conceived again, and bare Jacob the sixth son.

20 And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.

So, we have to discount Gen 49 for helping with any possible overlapping births.

Now also, note that in reading the text, I came upon some other verses that will indicate that Jacob was in a hurry to get back to Canaan and would not have tarried a long time (up to 20 years by your reckoning in Succoth) before coming into Canaan:

Gen 31:3 And the LORD said unto Jacob, Return unto the land of thy fathers, and to thy kindred; and I will be with thee…..

13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred. .…..

17 ¶ Then Jacob rose up, and set his sons and his wives upon camels;

18 And he carried away all his cattle, and all his goods which he had gotten, the cattle of his getting, which he had gotten in Padanaram, for to go to Isaac his father in the land of Canaan.

Ge 32:9 ¶ And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the LORD which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee:

These are the very same commands that were given to Abraham when he too was leaving Haran in Chaldee after the death of his father Terah:

Gen 13: 1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 ¶ So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

So, Jacob would have been obedient and not tarry especially because he wanted to see his father Isaac who was aged and blind before he died and for Isaac to meet his family for the first time!

Well, this explains how the text is understood. And again, the forty years stay in Haran fits perfectly with the very time spans and births of the twelve children and the ages they must be in order for the 11^th and second to the last child to be shacking up in Shechem and for her two brothers to kill all the men in Shechem upon returning from Haran. And, wonderfully all the detail historical events described by God both in leaving Haran and during the journey to Canaan and upon arriving in Canaan do fully support the forty years stay in Haran and do not support a shorter period.

http://pablo33319.home.comcast.net/